What do you think about Wal-Mart?

[yesthattom]

A friend of mine would like to know your opinions about Wal-Mart. Please post your thoughts and opinions as a comment to this message.

She writes: I am doing a research paper on Wal-Mart and I was wondering what you opinion is, and your readers opinions, just in general. I'm not asking any specific questions, but knowing you and your readers, I think leaving it open ended like this is exactly what I am looking for.

If you don't have an opinion about Wal-Mart, read about How their business practices hurt even their suppliers or How Wal-Mart contributes to loss of jobs in the U.S.or how Wal-Mart mis-treats women.

Now to all my libertarian friends who say, "Hey, they're just doing business. If you don't like it, ignore them and it won't affect you!" I say it is affecting me. When towns around me are ruined by their business practices it increases my crime rate. However, the biggest reason libertarians should dislike Wal-Mart is that they pay people so little that their employee manual encourages people to apply for public assistance programs like food-stamps and welfare. Their employee manual encourages you to get help from your manager if you can't understand the forms. So let me ask you this, "Should a business be able to profit by encouraging its employees to be on Welfare?" Libertarians hate government subsidie: has Wal-Mart found a loophole that is libertarian friendly?

But the real story is about the pickle.

Comments

[mactavish.livejournal.com]

http://www.livejournal.com/users/mactavish/2845782.html

[thespian.livejournal.com]

uhm, hey, statistics boy. ;-)

I am doing a research paper on Wal-Mart and I was wondering what you opinion is, and your readers opinions, just in general. I'm not asking any specific questions, but knowing you and your readers, I think leaving it open ended like this is exactly what I am looking for.

She *said* she was leaving it open ended. Doesn't it seem to you that perhaps saying 'and if you don't have an opinion, here's lots of evil stuff they do!' is perhaps going to skew things, maybe a little? Depending on what level of research neutrality she needs, you may well have totally invalidated the research...

[yesthattom.livejournal.com]

I was going to make them separate posts, but was in a hurry. I don't think it will matter much.

[stakebait.livejournal.com]

I thought that too. People who have positive or neutral opinions are less likely to commment.

[rainbear.livejournal.com]

When they moved in here, in Ledgewood, I cringed.

I cringed because I know how they operate. They come in, they lower prices so that all the local mom and pop shops have to close down, and then they start raising prices since they no longer have to be competitive.

When they came in, we had a "PharmHouse" in the same mall. Within 6 months, they were out of business, the pharmacists that had worked there were now at WalMart, and we ended up having to go to the pharmacy there. Within 6 months of the pharmacists working there, they were all thrown to different WalMart pharmacies that they were opening up in different regions. There was no choice in the matter for them--they were told point blank "You start reporting to XX location in 3 weeks, make sure everyone in the department is up to speed before you go."

It's a few years later now. The space where PharmHouse once stood is still empty. Some of the local shops have closed up too... It's gotten harder to find albums that aren't "altered for your parent's pleasure," since all the stores around are feeding into the WalMart psychosis. And hey--the prices are great.. if you like generic cheap plastic shit.

I've watched as, for instance, before Xmas, they have lower prices than anyone for toys and games. It's where I ended up getting Steven his LeapPad books. Then, immediately after Xmas, the prices went up--this would be the time when kids would take their Xmas money and gift certificates, and go shopping. I saw LeapPad books go from $12 each to $14. Just rotten practice, if you ask me.

You know what I miss?

Caldor's
Bradlees
Jamesway

All companies put out of business by WalMart in this area.

What's really scary? I have three WalMarts within a 15-minute driving radius. Plus a Sams Club (so that's really 4, I guess).

Who the hell needs *that many* in *that short* of a distance?

Anywho. Enough ranting. :-/ Good topic, Tom!

[smutprincess.livejournal.com]

i despise walmart.

Have a citation?

[(Anonymous)]

I've not heard that one before!

The employee manual encourages employees to apply for public
assistance? I'd really like to be able to push that little
nugget in a few folks' faces...

[geekchick]

they pay people so little that their employee manual encourages people to apply for public assistance programs like food-stamps and welfare.

If it does, I think that might be a relatively recent addition. I worked there in high school (which, granted, was not exactly last year) and I don't at all remember reading anything like that. I considered my stint there no more annoying than any other retail job I've had and better than some. Then again, I was a middle-class high school student working for spending money and college tuition and not someone trying to support a family or to make it into management as a woman, so I don't think my experience was really the same as that of the average full-time employee. rivka wrote a piece about Wal-Mart in her blog that you might be interested in reading.

[likethewatch.livejournal.com]

I hate Wal-Mart. Here's where Libertarians can take their laissez faire and shove it up their impacted, polyp-ridden asses: Wal-Mart is using public resources and not paying for them. From paying their employees such low wages that they are still dependent upon public assistance (that they should instead be helping to pay for through their employment taxes), to taking advantage of slave labor in other countries in order to get cheaper shit, to sucking the civic life out of small towns, (not to mention any environmental impact from the products they sell, the parking lots they pave, etc.) Wal-Mart may be best characterized as a giant corporate locust swarm. I support direct action against Wal-Mart.

But I don't think your article links biased me any. I am going to go read them now. Thanks for providing them.

[dawn-guy.livejournal.com]

I'm not fond of big box stores in general, and large US-based ones in particular. Given the choice, I'll go to Rona or Canadian Tire or Home Hardware rather than Home Depot. I'll go to Staples rather than Best Buy, though I will compare prices at FutureShop. I'll see a movie at the Princess rather than the Galaxy or Silver City.

The arrival of a Wal-Mart in the east end of Kitchener happened around the same time the "power centre" including a CostCo (Price Club) and a Home Depot opened up there. Now there is another collection of box stores at the north end of Waterloo, and I don't go to any of them if I don't have to.

In Canada, Wal-Mart has pressured employees into not becoming unionized and worked to break up unions should one manage to get formed. I grew up with a strong distaste for unions, but my prejudice against bullies is stronger.

catbear's ex got a job with Home Depot a few months ago and they provided a decent wage and what seem to me crappy benefits: part time status with a 40 hour work week, work scheduled every weekend, no health coverage, and the option to purchase health coverage under some kind of group plan after passing a probationary period. I understand that's a good job in her part of the states and shudder to think what a crappy one would be. I guess it would be working for Wal-Mart.

If I really need something small and frail and plastic, I'll get it from Zellers or one of the dollar stores in town rather than step into the depressing cavern of a Wal-Mart. I don't care if I can get it cheaper there, though I wouldn't know because I don't even bother to read the thick flyers from Wal-Mart.

[ceo]

As big-box retailers go, Costco actually treats its employess well, for which Wall Street doesn't like them very much. Here's an article reprinted from the Wall Street Journal about this.

Recently I almost had to buy something at Wal-Mart when I needed an emergency tire replacement and they were the only place open. Fortunately they didn't have the right size tire. :-/

[stakebait.livejournal.com]

I won't shop there. They censor their music, they sell guns, and they lock their night employees in till morning. Plus there have been stories about discriminating against immigrants. Basically it's hard to imagine a corporation whose values are more comprehensively not mine without actively breaking the law.

Ikea is proof that a company can be cheap without being sleazy. Of the big box discount retailers, I prefer Target. I'm sure they're not saints, but I've yet to hear any horror stories.

Mer

[keyne.livejournal.com]

Of the big box discount retailers, I prefer Target. I'm sure they're not saints, but I've yet to hear any horror stories.

Target used to give prospective employees psychological tests asking about their bowel movements and whether they were homosexual. No idea whether they've become less sleazy in the last decade, though.

[stakebait.livejournal.com]

Good lord!

[kimuchi.livejournal.com]

My first impression about Wal-Mart is always self-centered, which is: it's a crappy place to shop, and nothing I can find there is worth the annoyance of the experience. The store is too busy, too crowded, the things in the store are all in disarray, chances are the one item you came looking for is not there, the free-roaming employees (if any) are not friendly or helpful. When it comes time to check out, the lines are too long, the aisles are messy, every single customer except me apparently brought a screeching toddler, and the cashiers are not friendly or helpful. As much as I'm embarassed about being a complete elitist, I end up leaving thinking "I make too much money to subject myself to that experience."

Beyond that, politically I'm definitely at odds with their business practices. I am especially disgusted about the news about WalMart encouraging employees to apply for public assistance (which I first heard elsewhere) -- especially when I think about WalMarts in depressed areas, like my home county, where the county services are struggling to stay afloat.

Incidentally, there is not a WalMart in my hometown -- TR is just too small to be of interest to them. There is a WalMart on the far side of Manitowoc, where there've been a long-standing ShopKo, K-Mart, etc. TR's downtown businesses continue to do about as well as you might expect from a small depressed midwestern town with a manufacturing economic base, or perhaps a bit better. It seems like the stores people needed to drive a ways to get to and were proto-big-boxes themselves anyway -- PrangeWay, ShopKo, KMart -- have suffered the most at WalMart's hands.

[stitchinthyme.livejournal.com]

I won't shop there. I'm normally not a big political type (as you know), but it's just as easy for me to shop elsewhere, and I'm thankfully in a good enough financial position that I can afford to pay a little more for stuff in order to avoid the Evil Empire. I imagine that if I were poor and had to watch every penny, though, it would be a much bigger test of my principles.

You don't necessarily save money at Wal-Mart

[mrfantasy.livejournal.com]

True, if you're buying "thing X", and Wal-Mart has it, it's likely to be cheaper there than most other places, but plenty of low-income people shop at Wal-Mart and impulse buy many things they don't need.

Then there's my oldest brother. I would bet he spends about $1000/week at Wal-Mart and Sam's Club. Buys all of his family's groceries there, which is bad enough, but he's also a compulsive shopper and will buy any brightly colored crap that enters his field of vision. He makes really good money, basically pays nothing for his house (at least compared to me) and is in debt up to his eyeballs because he buys tons of low-cost, low quality stuff from Wal-Mart, which then breaks, and accumulates.

Perhaps he's an extreme example, but certainly Wal-Mart is not really in the business of saving people money, it's trying to get them to buy more stuff.

[debbyl65.livejournal.com]

I hate Wal-Mart. I've gone from liking to shop there, years ago, to an active boycott. The turning point for me was their false identification with and pandering to American values and family values. I hate hypocrites and their values are so not mine. As mentioned above, it's the guns and the censorship and the claims that they're all-American when actually they're not. I'm really turned off by their new ad campaign with its soft-focus look at Napa Valley Wal-Marts and other community based stuff, and their sponsorship of public broadcasting as a way to gain some legitimacy and expand their market.

Luckily, I live in a city where I have lots of shopping options. When I visit relatives in small towns, I look for the alternative or I plan to bring my own. As these new stories (http://edworkforce.house.gov/democrats/releases/rel21604.html) have come out about how really detrimental Wal-Mart is to our society, I could see myself taking it to the next level. I've never interfered with anyone else's desire to shop there, but I could see telling people not to buy my family anything (like lots of cheap, plastic Christmas gifts) at Wal-Mart and letting them know why.

I'm afraid, though, our society's consumerist urges are at odds with getting anything done about it. Why not pay $3 for a gallon of pickles if you can? Why only buy one toy for your grandkid when you can fill the space under the tree for the same cost at Wal-Mart? I don't think the average person will get the link, or even care, between their buying satisfaction and our tax money going to support people who can't support themselves on their wages from that place, labor abuses, etc. Sucks.

[cloacabutt.livejournal.com]

Before I became a mother, I was adamantly opposed to WalMart. I lived in Brattleboro, VT (topic of a documentary, Walmart vs. Brattleboro, VT) and considered them to be the devil because they destroy the economies of small towns.

Now a Walmart moved into a dead urban shopping center near my parents' house, and I have to admit I have bought a few things there. The truth is that it is so expensive buying shoes, toys, etc. for kids that you just have to go where it is cheapest. Kids outgrow their shoes every 3 months or so, and they average $30. I got a pair at Walmart for $7 that actually fit my kid's wide feet, and that he will consent to wear. That was a godsend for me. The reason you see parents with screeching toddlers at Walmart is a) it is almost impossible for a middle class family to afford to raise kids, let alone a poor family, and this is something you just do not understand until you try to do it yourself, and b) kids lose it when you take them shopping, which you have to do unless you're going to pay a babysitter, which you probably can't afford if you are shopping at Walmart.

So, am I morally opposed to Walmart? Absolutely, although I think they are actually providing a service to urban communities where there are no other shopping options. Will I shop there? Sometimes, if I can't find something somewhere else at an affordable price.

Are you horrified? Think you've never bought something with blood on your hands? Everyone has bought something produced by child labor, or underpaid workers, or filled with enviromental hazards. Every bought anything vinyl? Its production causes an environmental disaster, as does bleached paper. Ever bought drugs? You are propping up the destruction of urban communities and deathlords in other countries. Ever bought meat? You're financing the torture of animals, and ingesting god knows what chemicals. Etc., etc. So get off of your high and holy Walmart horse, unless you apply those principals in the rest of your life. The real problem is that people have to resort to going to places like Walmart because wages are not high enough to support a decent standard of living.

[kimuchi.livejournal.com]

I prefer to blame the screeching on the store's unwillingness or inability to staff their checkout lanes for the customer volume. I mean, I'm ready to screech if I've been waiting in line longer than it took me to find whatever damn thing I thought I wanted to buy there, and I've got a hell of a lot more impulse control than the average 2 year old.

[keyne.livejournal.com]

it is almost impossible for a middle class family to afford to raise kids, let alone a poor family, and this is something you just do not understand until you try to do it yourself

I'm raising two on their father's single middle-class salary (and covering school and childcare costs). It may be "almost impossible" if your kids are keeping up with the Joneses, but mine aren't -- I buy their clothes at tag sales and discount stores, their shoes at Payless (for rarely-worn stuff). For regular shoes they get hand-me-down StrideRites. Commercial toys come from grandparents occasionally and from the town "swap shed" mostly. I I rarely buy anything retail myself, and don't feel any need to shower my kids with brand-new stuff. For what it's worth.

[cloacabutt.livejournal.com]

Keeping up with the Joneses? You've got to be kidding. I'd have to work 60 hours a week to earn gas money for my huge SUV. I am talking about maintaining the basics for my family with one full-time and one part-time income, which puts us smack at the median income level of Americans.

I don't buy tons of crap for my son. He gets clothes when he outgrows his, and I get them at swaps or thrift stores or hand-me-downs (don't have a good source, unfortunately), or Old Navy clearance rack. I don't buy myself clothes (well, I just bought myself two pairs of pants, but that's the first purchase I've made in about 2 years, and my jeans literally ripped in half).

Most of his toys are hand-me-downs or gifts, or cheap but good things from the local, family-owned 5 and dime. His favorite toys are rocks and sticks (not from lack of other toys, but by choice). Children need new toys to stimulate their development. His books are almost all gifts or the ones I read when I was a kid.

The rest of our income goes to mortgage and bills. We don't go out to dinner or movies. We joined the zoo for about $50 a year, which we thought was worthwhile. I go to yoga once a week to maintain my sanity, and that's about the extent of my luxury.

We have two cars, which is an excess, but we are sort of waiting to see which one dies first (they are 12 and14 years old), because we couldn't afford to get a new one if we sold one and the other one died. (Book value of my husband's car: $500).

The trouble is that real wages have slipped so low that it is nearly impossible for a middle class family to make ends meet. There have been books written about this (I don't have the reference here). It's pathetic, and won't change unless we get a new administration in the White House.

[stakebait.livejournal.com]

What is the argument here? That if we've ever supported something bad out of ignorance or necessity we're no longer allowed to call something else bad and try to put a stop to it?

I buy free range organic or kosher meat when I can to avoid the torture problem. But I eat in restaurants without asking about this, because it would screw up my life too much not to. I buy union and USA made products when I can find them to avoid child-labor, and I avoid known sweatshop brands, but I don't research every pair of socks before I take them home. I don't buy drugs (although I also think your argument about what they support is overgeneralized) or vinyl. I don't know what the problem is with bleached paper, which I buy all the time, but I want to know. I don't want you to "get off your high and holy bleached paper horse" and not tell me.

I do try to apply my principles to all areas of my life. That's what they're for. That doesn't mean I always succeed. I have other principles and other needs and wants and they have to balance, and one of those principles is making a household on a tight budget, and another is not turning into a frothing extremist who can't do anything without researching it for weeks.

I don't think it makes you, or me, or anyone a horrible person if sometimes they buy a product that's not perfect. But I do think that's not a reason not to try not to.

It's like eating right. Having a few French fries is not the end of the world, but having had a few French fries is all the more reason to have fresh fruits and veggies when you can. And I don't think having a few French fries disqualifies you from pointing out the health risks of some other food either. The point of saying "farm raised salmon has bad chemicals in it" is not to say "I have never eaten an artificial sweetner and my body is a temple, unlike the rest of you jerks" it is to say "hey, y'all might want to know this and factor it into your decision."

I have no problem with you telling me keeping your kids in shoes is a higher value for you than boycotting stores with bad practices. But it does mean, to me, that it's important to know that you're having to sacrifice that, so that maybe someone can provide an alternative you can afford that doesn't do violence to your principles.

Mer

[kimuchi.livejournal.com]

I agree with your point, but I can also empathize with what I feel is the basic emotional content of the previous post, which is that it's pretty assy for people to act superior based on where they spend their money.

In general I try to shop according to my principles, but I know there will always be someone more punk rock than me, more vegan than me, more organized than me, or just with more ego invested in their consumer identity than me who will come along and look down their nose at my habits.

[cloacabutt.livejournal.com]

My point is that blaming the people who shop at WalMart for the sorry state of the economy is misguided. People shop there because they have no other options, not because they are stupid or morally inferior. When you are a parent, you do what it takes to get your kids the things they need, and sometimes you have to do things that you are not proud of. If there was a better alternative, I'd take it (and I do with clothes, but second-hand shoes don't last and can be bad for the feet, not to mention you can't wash them).

The problem with chlorine bleach is that it releases dioxin, which is one of the deadliest chemicals around. See Greenpeace for more info. You can get unbleached or oxy-bleached paper instead. (Does it really matter what color your toilet paper is?) This is not a high horse. It's just the facts.

I used to subscribe to the "a few fries won't kill me" philosophy, but lately I've been reading about how awful they are, averaging about 600 calories at a fast food place (and I'm a vegetarian so that's all I'd eat there). It's turned me off enough to quit that bad habit. I'd rather eat healthier junk, and I don't want my kid to eat that crap.

[lothie.livejournal.com]

I totally agree with thespian that you've pretty much destroyed any chances of an "open ended" discussion here.

However, here I am with my comments anyway.

I don't make a habit of shopping at Walmart, though I have been to one on occasion. There are two reasons for this:

1. There isn't one convenient to me.
2. Even if there were, I probably wouldn't spend a lot of time there, as I really don't like shopping much at the KMart/Walmart/Target type of store. Great bargains, but often scuzzy, particularly right where I live. [this may change somewhat when we move, though IIRC there's not a walmart there either]

I *do* shop at Sam's Club. I imagine that politically speaking, this is the same thing as shopping at Walmart. When we walked in, hoping to renew a membership that Chris had had with his ex, they offered us a business membership, which costs us less and has better shopping hours. Their customer service rocks and everyone is polite and friendly. We buy whatever we can in bulk and freeze/store it or whatever, so it really makes sense for us to shop at such a place.

I hear the stories, yes. I will not say I am concerned about the pickle story especially. If the stories about the low pay etc. are true, that's very upsetting as well. Nonetheless, at this time, I choose to shop at Sam's Club, because I am getting what I want there. Particularly while the supermarket strikes were on, it ended up being pretty much the only place to go.

There is, actually, a CostCo right nearby as well. I don't know, are they "better" politically? I'm not even sure we could GET into CostCo.

So. There you have it. Someone who shops there and intends to remain shopping there for now, if you count Sam's Club as being Walmart.

[beowabbit]

Costco is way, way, way better politically. I heard a segment about Costco and how they treat their employees on NPR recently, and it made me feel good about being a member.

If there are requirements for joining Costco, I don't know what they are. I just signed up and paid the fee and they gave me the little white plastic card.

(And I find Costco pleasant to shop at.)

[lothie.livejournal.com]

Hmn. I'd thought you could only get it through an employer sponsorship. Guess I was wrong or it's changed.

Well, membership is about $15/year more than what I pay for Sam's Club, but when we move, I'll probably get us a membership there and not bother to renew the Sam's Club one. Makes sense from a personal standpoint anyway as there aren't any Sam's Clubs anywhere near where we'll be living.

[usqueba.livejournal.com]

Anybody can plunk down $45 (or whatever it is) and get a CostCo membership. I know several people with no sponsorships who have cards. And they have good/cheap pizza/hotdogs/frozen yogurt so we go there for lunch sometimes (the one near us has an outside food court).

[lothie.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I'm all about it. Like I said, I'll probably let the Sam's run out and get Costco when we move.

[(Anonymous)]

I have never been in a wal mart, and I never will.
I am mostly opposed to their ad and marketing strategies.
They play on weaknesses like social acceptance and sympathy for the handicapped in order to get you to spend your money there.
I find this particularly loathesome and evil.
If you buy this at walmart, your friends will like you more. It pretty much says as much in their ads.
THat disgust me.

But, people shop there. And if thats what they want, so be it.
I will never. And I have a strange feeling walgreens is affiliated with them, so I never go there either.
Never

[shakal.livejournal.com]

I used to be able to find things that were Made In USA at Wal-Mart, which was really cool. But that's more and more rare, and I don't like what happened back home north of my parents' place (Indiana, south side of Indianapolis) when a Wal-Mart came in about a decade ago.

My parents are currently trying to prevent another Wal-Mart from being built even closer to them, located where the nearest cross-street is a winding, narrow, two-lane country road where accidents have killed high schoolers in recent memory and where traffic just keeps getting worse as more fields are turned into housing developments. Also, the plan is to build it right next to and around an existing funeral home. How tacky is that?

I used to think they were a decent place to buy shooting-related stuff (paper targets, spare earplugs, etc) if I didn't remember where a nearby outdoorsy store or gun shop was, but now that I know where all of those stores are, it's irrelevant.

It's been a long time since I shopped at Wal-Mart for anything, and I have no plans to set foot in there again. I shop at Target for plastic tubs and organizer type stuff, and KMart more rarely for towels and sheets, and frequently Lego if they're on sale. Yes, I admit that I have Martha Stewart products in my home. :-)

Tell your friend good luck with her project!

necessary evil

[jenn-girl.livejournal.com]

I don't like Walmart for a lot of reasons- the attempt to portray their right wing views as my views, their attepted control of the recording industry through not purchasing unedited products or products by certain labels, and the low wages and understaffing that we all have read about. But I sometimes shop there. There are times when the opportunity to get a $12 lamp for my living room is more important- I try to look at bed bath and beyond, kmart, or target first, but sometimes walmart is the only and best option. I don't make enough money or have enogh time to always follow the political beliefs that I have.

Thank you

[lovefox1.livejournal.com]

Just wanted to thank you Tom, and everyone who replied. Actually, the FastCompany article is what made me choose Wal*Mart as my research project. I have always hated Wal*Mart for many reasons, starting with the discrimination case that took place in the Piscataway, NJ store. They fired an transsexual after learning she was really a man, and it's not just rumors, it was an actual case that was in the local newspapers. Then I learned that they don't carry "the morning after pill" and from there it just became an obsession.

I don't shop there at Wal*Mart at all. And I don't boycott every single store/company/product that isn't perfect, I guess it's a case of ignorance being bliss. Years ago I used to work at The Body Shop (skin & hair care) and every since then I am cautious of what skin care products I buy. Until then, I didn't care.

Again, thank you!
Gina Marie

[usqueba.livejournal.com]

I dislike WalMart because they censor records/movies. I want my stuff unedited, thank you. Even if they were my dad (they're not), I'm a freakin' adult.

Also I hate the stupid yellow smiley face. I can't tell you how much I hate those commercials.

[mangosteen]

First you say,

And as one of those Libertarians that you like to rag on, I vote with my pocketbook, and take business elsewhere when I can.

Then you say,

They aren't convienent, nor are the politics that good.

Convenience is certainly a legitimate reason to not patronize a store, but what do politics have to do with it. If they're providing the lowest prices, why wouldn't you shop there?